Game thread - @ VCU Tuesday 1/27 7pm CBS Sports Network

[PhillySpider]

@sman - if you have the game on DVR, please watch the first defensive possession when he enters the game. He ball watches flatfooted, his man slides over for an uncontested 3, which he easily drains from the left wing. That happens all the time - he stares at the ball, cannot recover when his man moves, if he tries, he is unable to box out bc he's moving the wrong direction in a scramble. He missed a shot in 2nd half and kind of stood under the rim, didn't run back, odd man situation and vcu got another 3. These were the most glaring, but if you just ignore the ball and focus on him on defense as you watch the game, you see these plays all the time.

We coach "ball watching out" of our AAU girls from day one. Its literally on every coach in the program's Day one practice plan which is where we start to instill program culture. Culture is, you won't play and can't play for us if you can't defend up to standard and you can't meet the standard if your watching the ball. Period . . the end. And honestly it takes about three days to coach it out of everyone, even the worst offenders (which are usually people who have played too much zone before). We can't make 'em have more lateral quickness or jump higher, but we can and do teach them how to be responsible, smart defenders and its honestly easy. All its takes is commitment to the priciple of stopping it. And they hear about it every single time they ball watch the first bunch of weeks. Most coaches simply assign an assistant to watch for it during any play, drill etc. during which defense is live. Kids can learn this -- its just a bad habit and kids who play hard or try hard still have bad habits - - but the coach has to go get this low hanging fruit that improves their defense. Mooney simply does not!

And we need to be willing to recruit and then play better defensive players and try to develop their offense some. Recruiting is a very different game now. Power of persuasion used to be really huge with everyone offering basically the same thing (full ride). You had to identify the right players for you and then convince them to pick you. But the identify part is even more important now because much of the persuasion is now simply price tag. Our NIL situation is at least competitive with our peers if not better, so we have to do a much better job of identifying the right players for our system (and gee that includes the fact that we play defense at least half the time (and we have to rebound too). We have several players on this team that we think of as among the best 5-6 we can put on the floor that are absolutely horrendous defensively and its NOT just because of lack of physical attributes!

 

[97spiderfan]

Lol. This would be an amazing billboard. Since ppl flip out over the word "Fire" more than school districts flip out over cold and snow.

It's a shot but with some subtlety. I mean he's truly gotten the school more NCAAs, and going on 7 vcu coaches bigger jobs and bigger contracts.

I'm in this time for funding

The billboard has probably lost its cache after the last attempt. But yes, I a more nuanced message may have been received differently, especially now.

I think there is a broader base of just discontent and malaise associated with our program now. More season ticket holders have disengaged, JOC and local media are just like oh that is little ole Richmond, just doing the best they can, the older group of ladies that always commented and defended Mooney on social media are no longer commenting, the stands behind Mooney seem less populated. People just don't care anymore and that presents an opportunity for those of us that do.

I think Mooney still has his well heeled donor class but I think more of the general fan base is ready to move on from him than their was the case a few years ago. Just my perception.

 

[*23*]

What would he nice if there was a whale out there, at PQ type on the opposite side of things to at least enter the chat and make Hardt and the lazy day gang sweat a little bit.

 

[GlouGuy]

I thought AP would get more time down low with Beagle out and Walz not 100%. I guessed wrong. This is a situation where he wouldn't be hoisting up 3s. What did he do to get yanked in under a minute? I didn't see the game.

 

[MrTbone]

did you guys catch on the broadcast that they told Martelli that job requirement #1 is to beat Richmond?

I did not hear that but it should actually go without saying. Our AD and coaches are too far removed from understanding this apparently.

 

[Eight Legger]

The #1 requirement in Mooney's contact is beating Fordham.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

I thought AP would get more time down low with Beagle out and Walz not 100%. I guessed wrong. This is a situation where he wouldn't be hoisting up 3s. What did he do to get yanked in under a minute? I didn't see the game.

came in, bricked a 20 foot jumper off the backboard, gave up an and-1 foul in the post where he got worked for position and that was that.

 

[MrTbone]

That’s one of those talking points that are vague and admin has thrown out there, the same way they generically have said something along the lines of “mid majors can’t schedule good games anymore” as an excuse which blatantly is contradicted by anyone looking at the facts. Nearly every A10 team had scheduled tough games. Davidson who was just as bad as we were last year was in the battle of Atlantis 2 years ago and a great tournament this year. They hosted Saint Mary’s at home and played at Kansas. Then you see with us declining games that would be good opportunities like JMU. Yes, JMU is not good this year and yes we cannot 100% predict how good a team will be. But they are a heck of a lot better option than VMI, Citadel, Gardner Webb, and D3 Southern Virginia.

Then your statement about ceiling of mid majors. Saint Louis literally fired a coach 2 years ago, and in his 2nd year Josh Schertz has them at 20-1 and #21 in the country. George Mason was a perennial bottom feeder and Tony Skinn in 2 years has them at 18-2. Look at Ryan Odom, Will Wade, etc. and what they’ve done at VCU. Dayton was top 5 team in the country 6 years ago. Not to mention mid majors doing well in other conferences.

So to make this all encompassing statement that mid majors have a ceiling is just not true. And even if there is a ceiling, it’s a heck of a lot higher than where we’re at right now. Then you have people like JOC rather than pointing out these things and question our admin when they give these vague and overgeneralized excuses, chooses to ask questions like whether Richmond’s NIL can support being competitive in the A10. It’s flat out ridicuous.

Our teams were competitive in the past, even in years where we did not make the NCAAs. That’s why I’ve argued that while NCAA is the most important metric, it’s not the sole metric of success. It’s about trajectory which right now is not looking good at all. We are not close to fielding a competitive team at an A10 level and next year isn’t looking any better. This has become a pattern.

I want to amend this last bit on trajectory youve mentioned here and elsewhere.

I get the notion, and don’t entirely disagree with it, but any trajectory has to A) be steady and B) culminate in something worthwhile (like an ncaa tourney berth).

It can’t be some crazy sinusoidal wave which could arguably describe the last 15 years.

We are way past any positive trajectory.

 

[brooklyn brownstone]

Moon based his whole philosophy on the 4 and 5 year player cycle.

The brief recap:
1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 NCAAs in 6 years.
2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 0 NCAAs in 5 years.
3rd cycle (Golden years) - 1 NCAA in 6 years
4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 0 NCAAs in 3 years, this year (4th) TBD, but we sure ain't getting an at large.

That historic player cycle does not exist anymore for the most part.

We are flailing now.

 

[Spiderguy]

The #1 requirement in Mooney's contact is beating Fordham.

Or any D3 team on our OOC Menu. Times are tough and challenging.

 

[whampas]

Or any D3 team on our OOC Menu. Times are tough and challenging.

It's really hard to win anywhere.

 

[Spiders4ever]

The #1 requirement in Mooney's contact is beating Fordham.

Yes. LaSalle is a reach

 

[Spider17]

I want to amend this last bit on trajectory youve mentioned here and elsewhere.

I get the notion, and don’t entirely disagree with it, but any trajectory has to A) be steady and B) culminate in something worthwhile (like an ncaa tourney berth).

It can’t be some crazy sinusoidal wave which could arguably describe the last 15 years.

We are way past any positive trajectory.

I would agree with that and I think even our admin would agree with that too. Where there might be differences is what is defined as culminating in something worthwhile. Using Brooklyn’s recap from above, I’ll add some extra information that might be considered worthwhile by people.

1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 NCAAs in 6 years.

2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 0 NCAAs in 5 years. *1st seed in NIT & QF of NIT, 21 wins in 2014-2015 season

3rd cycle (Golden years) - 1 NCAA in 6 years *COVID year cancelled either at large NCAA or 1st seed in NIT & 24 win season in 2019-2020

4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 0 NCAAs in 3 years, this year (4th) TBD, but we sure ain't getting an at large *A10 regular season championship with 23 wins in 2023-2024

So if we amend above slightly to include other season results that might be considered “worthwhile” even if it didn’t include NCAA birth, this is what those same cycles would look like.

1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 Worthwhile years in 6 years.
2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 1* Worthwhile year in 5 years*
3rd cycle (Golden years) - 2 Worthwhile years 6 years
4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 1 Worthwhile year in 4 years (assuming we don’t win A10 tournament this year)

*In 2016-2017 we had a 22 win season, tied for 3rd in A10, and had NIT QF appearance so some/our admin could argue was also a worthwhile season as well in which case we would have had 2 worthwhile years in the 2nd cycle.

The difference in this cycle is there is no indication that we can culminate to something worthwhile like we could with Golden/Gilly or TJ Cline cycles. Every year now it’s new players and Mooney has not shown consistent ability to find transfer players who can gel and perform well with 1-2 years together. Our high school recruiting is not good either and Argabright is the only player right now who I feel confident is A10 starter material. Our schedules have stunk the past 2 years. Hence the declining trajectory and why I anticipate next year and the year after, we will continue to have seasons that are disappointing.

 

[RichmondNative]

Moon based his whole philosophy on the 4 and 5 year player cycle.

The brief recap:
1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 NCAAs in 6 years.
2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 0 NCAAs in 5 years.
3rd cycle (Golden years) - 1 NCAA in 6 years
4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 0 NCAAs in 3 years, this year (4th) TBD, but we sure ain't getting an at large.

That historic player cycle does not exist anymore for the most part.

We are flailing now.

Had to chuckle at 3rd cycle. The golden years should have been followed by retirement.

The facts don’t lie and this does a great job of simplification. The trend is and has been down.

 

[Spider B]

Moon based his whole philosophy on the 4 and 5 year player cycle.

The brief recap:
1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 NCAAs in 6 years.
2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 0 NCAAs in 5 years.
3rd cycle (Golden years) - 1 NCAA in 6 years
4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 0 NCAAs in 3 years, this year (4th) TBD, but we sure ain't getting an at large.

That historic player cycle does not exist anymore for the most part.

We are flailing now.

I am to the point where I dont even blame CM anymore. He is bad coach but if the administration is dumb enough to pay him a couple million a year for the results he produces, then good on him. Clearly the administration's goal for the program is not to make the NCAA tournament every year or even every 4 years. It appears he is meeting the administration's standards and they are good with where the program is. It has led me to really not care about the program nearly as much as I did and I will not ever give a dime to UR. If they dont care about winning, why should we?

 

[ur2K]

Sad that the first cycle was the best one in a 21 year cycle. How did we go from that team that made consecutive NCAAs and two back to back conference championship games to whatever this is now that we put out there year after year. Was it so long ago that we are the only dinosaurs that can remember us being good?

 

[Gallipoli]

Coach Mooney is not a "bad" coach. He is not a great coach either. Our best coaches were Dick Tarrant and John Beilein. Wainwright was a bad coach. We had some terrible coaches in early to mid 1970s. Mooney should be rated as a slightly above average UR coach.

Richmond Spiders men's basketball - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[ManiBenton]

Sad that the first cycle was the best one in a 21 year cycle. How did we go from that team that made consecutive NCAAs and two back to back conference championship games to whatever this is now that we put out there year after year. Was it so long ago that we are the only dinosaurs that can remember us being good?

yeah i think thats the big killer. 7th seed followed by a sweet 16 run into a major NCAA tourney drought with capable talent to make it too. It wasnt like he had bad rosters.

 

[97spiderfan]

I am to the point where I dont even blame CM anymore. He is bad coach but if the administration is dumb enough to pay him a couple million a year for the results he produces, then good on him. Clearly the administration's goal for the program is not to make the NCAA tournament every year or even every 4 years. It appears he is meeting the administration's standards and they are good with where the program is. It has led me to really not care about the program nearly as much as I did and I will not ever give a dime to UR. If they dont care about winning, why should we?

Yep. All of this. I'm someone is willing you to pay a couple million a year and not have high expectations for that pay, I mean who is really turning that down. Now, I will say Mooney not holding himself to any standard as well, which I do blame him for.

Mooney and our admin fit perfectly together because they both have zero internal or external accountability and it runs from through the whole program for us all to see. From the misspelled and incorrect social media, lackluster fan engagement, heck I called last week for some tickets and I got the voicemail which informed me of their Christmas holiday operating hours and how they looked forward to being back on January 5th (it was mid January at that point) all the way up to the coaching.

They just have no accountability or standards to run a major D-1 program and it permeates the entire operation. Huge leadership void at all levels, but it starts at the top with Hardt, who obviously tolerates or ignores all of the little stuff and big stuff.

 

[Urmite]

I would agree with that and I think even our admin would agree with that too. Where there might be differences is what is defined as culminating in something worthwhile. Using Brooklyn’s recap from above, I’ll add some extra information that might be considered worthwhile by people.

1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 NCAAs in 6 years.

2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 0 NCAAs in 5 years. *1st seed in NIT & QF of NIT, 21 wins in 2014-2015 season

3rd cycle (Golden years) - 1 NCAA in 6 years *COVID year cancelled either at large NCAA or 1st seed in NIT & 24 win season in 2019-2020

4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 0 NCAAs in 3 years, this year (4th) TBD, but we sure ain't getting an at large *A10 regular season championship with 23 wins in 2023-2024

So if we amend above slightly to include other season results that might be considered “worthwhile” even if it didn’t include NCAA birth, this is what those same cycles would look like.

1st cycle (Geriot years)- 2 Worthwhile years in 6 years.
2nd cycle (KA0/Cline years) - 1* Worthwhile year in 5 years*
3rd cycle (Golden years) - 2 Worthwhile years 6 years
4th cycle (Portal/NIL years) - 1 Worthwhile year in 4 years (assuming we don’t win A10 tournament this year)

*In 2016-2017 we had a 22 win season, tied for 3rd in A10, and had NIT QF appearance so some/our admin could argue was also a worthwhile season as well in which case we would have had 2 worthwhile years in the 2nd cycle.

The difference in this cycle is there is no indication that we can culminate to something worthwhile like we could with Golden/Gilly or TJ Cline cycles. Every year now it’s new players and Mooney has not shown consistent ability to find transfer players who can gel and perform well with 1-2 years together. Our high school recruiting is not good either and Argabright is the only player right now who I feel confident is A10 starter material. Our schedules have stunk the past 2 years. Hence the declining trajectory and why I anticipate next year and the year after, we will continue to have seasons that are disappointing.

Some of that depends on definition. If I define worthwhile season as 21 wins (ok 20.65) before A10 Tournament, how many does each cycle have?

I consider A10 Tournament and beyond a separate group and not sure how to define “worthwhile”.